Ton’s criticisms of Elena March 6, 2011
Posted by Elena in Uncategorized.trackback
This page is dedicated to Ton and his criticism of my individuality. I have opened it here so that it can be used for that sole purpose which is what his participation throughout the blogs has been about and because I am interested in furthering my research on the subjects I am interested in without the consistent interruption about my misgivings. My misgivings are plenty. If Ton considers them such a worthy subject, here is a whole page for you to expose them.
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The Public Square 
132. ton – March 6, 2011 [Edit]
elena; “It has been in the soul of all nations Ton, why is it that you cannot perceive it?”
it is you who say that i can’t or don’t “perceive it” — that is simply again your own perception and projection of your idea onto me (the other). psychological projection is defense mechanism — a person unconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to other people. projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others have those feelings. projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them. an example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. the mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and by redirecting satisfaction by attaching, or “projecting,” those same faults onto another person or object.
you see elena both are true… one must acknowledge BOTH the individual AND the collective…. what you fail to do here is to recognize context…. it’s the context of your one-sided myopic refrain which glorifies the collective that i object to…. and that context here on your blog is YOU… everything here filters through your own subjective individual perception elena… just because you are ‘saying it aloud’ here, that does not make it objective elena — this seems to be what you fail to realize. what is behind this mindset of yours ? it does smack of a totalitarian, fascistic, cultic mindset. the source of the mantra you continually chant here is what i object to — that source here is YOU and your own subjectivity which hides beneath and behind the collective “we” in order to masquerade as a type of imagined objectivity. you cannot pretend to speak for me or anyone else, much less the mass of humanity while you are failing to recognize the individual and that includes your self elena, the subject is you which you continually deny. you certainly cannot pretend to speak for me when you don’t even acknowledge and recognize me as an individual…. this is how deep your denial is.
elena: “The thousands of patients that Jung worked with and the millions that still need to be treated today are precisely the generations of human beings that have lost contact with the archetypes within themselves and in that loss, lost the meaning of life: death.”
this is very pretentious elena — you read a couple of lines from jung and all of a sudden you imagine yourself an expert… and what is worse you use this tidbit as another way of denying your own situation elena, you act as if you are above it all, above the poor and huddled masses you pretend to speak for, you imagine that you are not one of “the millions that still need to be treated today” — the point is elena, what can you do for yourself in this context ? eating your imaginary pie in the sky changes nothing.
elena: “thank you for this post Ton. Here you seem to understand much better than previously what this blog is about…. ”
and yet you still don’t understand.
elena: “…and prove more clearly than ever that if you actually wanted to add to the subject instead of detracting from it you could have done so all along…”
this is simply more denial and the typical dismissive attitude that is your habit…. what you call “detracting” i see as a deeper examination of the source.
elena: “…I would appreciate it if you could share with us…”
who is “us” elena ? if you are referring to you and i, then i believe we both know what i’m talking about, god knows we’ve been over it ad nauseum. if by ‘us’ you are referring to your imaginary audience here, i would suggest you do a little more research into HPD
elena: “what it is exactly that you think you are helping me with Ton?”
it’s simple elena but obviously it’s not easy; i am trying to help you to see yourself… this is difficult for someone like yourself who is so armored with arrogance and egotism as you demonstrate here.
elena: “What is the disability you see and what are the methods that you are using to address it?”
interesting that you should use the word “disability” — your word not mine… but since you put it in those terms; it has to do with an inability to see yourself through the eyes of another… and a concomitant lack of empathy. in general there is a term you should be familiarize yourself with — psychological blind spots… we all have them elena, the problem is that we fail to recognize them as such because of “blindness” to these areas… ouspensky might have called it an aspect of “sleep.’
elena: “but your aim was not helping but hindering. Has that changed now?”
nothing has changed elena, i am still here offering my observations which you perceive as “hindering.” that is a matter of perception which you take to be somehow “absolutely objective” rather than recognizing it as your subjective reaction and response…. your arrogance and egocentric attitude keeps you from withdrawing this type of projection…. this is your mistake. when you say things like: “Pointing out your similarity to Robert and fascist behavior is a fact not an insult.” that is a subjectively filtered perception stated as if it were an absolute fact…. this is an example of how filters of experience create psychological blind spots which you are unable to see and therefore determined to deny.
elena: “I state that your aim is to not only discredit what I say but try to convince me that what I am working on is of no value…”
wrong elena, wrong again. i’ve said it before but i’ll say it again: what you are working on here is worthwhile to you and maybe to you alone… at least that’s a healthier and less inflated way to approach this project of yours. it is when you pompously pretend to speak for the rest of the human race or when in a seeming state of delusional grandeur you imagine an audience hanging on your every “published” word here — that’s where you go astray. i think this project IS worthwhile for you as a journaling exercise, i’ve said so before, even offering links for further research into this important type of therapy. but as usual you dismissed me and said you don’t have time to follow through — this is another form of denial elena…. i’ll offer you the chance again here elena: when you dismiss me and attempt to marginalize me, when you treat me this way you are (in your own words): “bringing a sense of worthlessness to myself and that THAT is a well known technique to disqualify people and get them to disqualify themselves.” but you know what elena, that doesn’t work on me, because i know where i stand and what i am about.
elena: “…you have made of your own self a person who can never address positively what you agree with.”
and YOU on the other hand, are a person who cannot possibly get enough praise… you are addicted to it, you are addicted to your ego… you need attention, that is clear, even if in a negative form… that is what you are asking for when you hurl your attempted insults and denigrations at another…. that’s what i reflect back to you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder
elena: “The post you responded to is about tough love, not only fascism. Why do you think that you tend to isolate things and never actually manage to address the whole? The whole of this blog, the whole of myself, the whole of your self and the whole of US with all the positive and negative aspects in the spectrum? I think nothing defines fascism as much as the inability to see the positive side of anything, affirm it and reaffirm it until it flourishes well…”
and isn’t it you elena who continues to deny everything i say here? in fact you treat me as if i were a non-entity or as a punching bag against which to hurl your own pain… and yet you fail to recognize that in yourself. i’ve said it over and over elena, my aim here is to reflect you back to you… so let’s make a deal, shall we? when you can stop attacking and insulting and negating me, then i will stop reflecting you back to you…. but as long as you feel the need to play this way, i will continue to reflect it back for you in the hope that one day you will see the source in yourself… this is about coming to terms with the shadow side, the negative parts of yourself which you project onto another because of the fear or inability to see that in yourself.
the whole is reflected in the parts elena, if you overlook the parts in favor of “the whole” you miss the point. and if my teasing out the details offends you so, then you might ask yourself why? i try here to comment based on my reactions to what i read, and i tend to ‘read between the lines’ which means i try to examine the filter through which things are being perceived and ‘said’ here by you…. that is you, you are the filter. i’ve always said that you are in fact the subject here elena, and although you seem on the one hand to resent the type of attention i give to you, on the other hand you resent the fact that i don’t attend to you in other ways…. i’m sure if i played the role of your little lap-poodle here you would have a much different attitude…. when someone disagrees with you, or takes a different tack on the meaning and goals of “blogging” itself, you resent it, you look at it as a betrayal and defiance of your imagined authority and control…. to the point of the threatening and actual excommunication of the other…. that’s me. this is my dear, a type of psychological fascism which you exemplify over and again here. you say: “It’s funny that you would post this and say that this blog is fascist.” no elena, wrong again, i didn’t say “this blog is fascist” — what i said was: ” you used the word “fascism” in your “send off” to me when in reality that term accurately describes aspects of your own mindset.” what i was referring to was that you obviously don’t know the meaning of that word which you are so fond of throwing about and especially in your attempts to use as another insult against the other (me). the point again elena, is that you can’t see fascism at work in your own psychology, it’s another blind spot which you project onto others. then, when it’s reflected back to you, you deny it exists as part of your own psyche… you obfuscate, you deflect, you deny… it’s all part of you elena, everything you say and filter here is part of you, and yes you are a part of the whole — that is why when i choose to focus on you it is a way of talking about the whole if only in part… why can’t you see that?
elena: “Thanks for bringing the definition of fascism, at least it is an attempt to look at what I am trying to explore here.”
when you say “at least it is an attempt…” well thanks for the credit elena… i could go on and on outlining your many backhanded insults and your agenda to marginalize anything i might say here but frankly it’s boring and you are boring elena, you’re a spoiled little girl who craves attention when in reality you desperately need to get grip on yourself by giving yourself the proper type of attention…. yes elena, whether you recognize it or not, yours is a desperate cry for help. i repeat, i’m happy to stop this game with you but as long as you are crying to me for help i will play… isn’t it you elena who continues to deny everything i say here? in fact you treat me as if i were a non-entity or at best as a punching bag against which to hurl your own pain… you fail to recognize that in yourself. i’ve said it over and over elena, my aim here is to reflect you back to you… so when you can stop attacking and insulting and negating me, when you are able to recognize that you are in fact attacking and attempting to insult me, when you are finally able to withdraw your projections and see them in yourself, then at that point i will understand that you no longer need me to reflect you back to yourself.
Reply
133. ton – March 6, 2011 [Edit]
elena: “I’ll skip your link for now, I’m too busy with my musings.”
when you are able to make time in your very busy schedule:
http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx17.htm
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/the-health-benefits-of-journaling/
Reply
134. Elena – March 6, 2011 [Edit]
I’m sorry Ton, there are more interesting things happening here than you and I but if that’s how you enjoy yourself, keep at it all you like.
I’m sincerely busy in understanding other people’s work and putting my own understanding in that context. If it is of no value for anyone but me let me have that joy, no one is pushing you to be here.
It’s sad that you cannot address the subject and give valuable insight through your own understanding but continue to limit yourself to the criticism, always the same. So be it.
I’ll open a page for your personal criticism of me and you can use it all you like for those interested in reading it.
8. ton – March 26, 2011 [Edit]
elena, thanks for taking time from your work to respond… you’ve got a lot of irons in the fire don’t you… i’m not sure where the ‘appropriate’ site is to post this but i’m sure you can move it or censor it as you wish.
e: “For your conflicts on individuality you might wish to look at post number 2 that I posted this morning at…”
you see elena, there you go again… I have no ‘conflict on individuality’ — what i object to is YOUR formulation, your dogmatic insistence and emphasis on the primacy of the collective at the expense of the individual — as evidenced by your constant refrain: “we are one.” i think you are at last finally able to realize and acknowledge the impossibly naive, limited and narrow-minded perspective your intransigence represents, you have at least begun to resort to words like “interdependent” rather than the amorphous and nondescript “Oneness.” congratulations for beginning to clear that up for yourself.
e: “It should not surprise us that human beings are, like Nature, interdependent on each other.”
yes as i have been saying for some time now, acknowledging interdependent interconnection is much more accurate than lumping everything into your favorite slogan “we are one.” i would go further in your assessment here in that ‘we’ are not only ‘interdependent on each other’ but more importantly we are interdependent and interconnected to all of Great Nature… this obvious fact is too often overlooked by ‘modern’ people who are conditioned in many ways to be insulated and isolated from the natural world.
e: “The forms within which people live have a structural force that sculpts their inner psychology. What IS outside of our selves, molds our inner as much as outer self in as much as we abide by the force of being one with the whole.”
what you don’t mention here is the importance of nonabiding with the force of being one with the whole… the question here is how can your one-way equation work the other way… how does the inner life of the individual give form to and ‘sculpt’ the outside ? i would say that only through the development of individuality is this a possibility… nothing changes in a world where the sheep believe so strongly in a conformist mantra like “we are one.”
e: “We are all living out a hierarchic sovereignty in which we act out our superiority towards others. We struggle to put others down so as to float above, mostly because we are ourselves so tremendously depressed in a world that values nobody.”
yes elena, i couldn’t agree more… i’m glad that you’re learning to see yourself through our interactions.
while you’re on the subject, here is an author i can recommend:
http://danielgoleman.info/
‘Here at The Corporation, we believe in working hard, and productivity. But we also believe in team. Because it was The Corporation that first recognized how profitable society could be if we all forgot ourselves and just worked together. Working together has provided us with jobs and happiness…a world built on (war and) peace… (holding up a piece of plastic) And plastic…where everything is wonderful and…above all… Magic! We’ve got great things in store for the future, because the corporate way is THE way…but don’t take my word for it, just listen to this… ‘
Visioneers
Thank you for posting Ton. I would appreciate it if you would post all your posts here in your page, you can just give us a reference of what post you are addressing. Us is you and I and the others reading in case you wonder again.
Corrected on the 29th of March
Hi Ton,
I think I now have the time to address your post.
8. ton – March 26, 2011 [Edit]
elena, thanks for taking time from your work to respond… you’ve got a lot of irons in the fire don’t you… i’m not sure where the ‘appropriate’ site is to post this but i’m sure you can move it or censor it as you wish.
e: “For your conflicts on individuality you might wish to look at post number 2 that I posted this morning at…”
you see elena, there you go again… I have no ‘conflict on individuality’ — what i object to is YOUR formulation, your dogmatic insistence and emphasis on the primacy of the collective at the expense of the individual —
Elena:
It seems you’ve never actually understood what I am talking about. We are One is not at the expense of the individual, it is I AM at its peak consciousness. Without that consciousness there is no individuality but individualism is rampant.________________
as evidenced by your constant refrain: “we are one.” i think you are at last finally able to realize and acknowledge the impossibly naive, limited and narrow-minded perspective your intransigence represents, you have at least begun to resort to words like “interdependent” rather than the amorphous and nondescript “Oneness.” congratulations for beginning to clear that up for yourself.
Elena:
I am not doing anything new Ton, simply expanding on the same principles that I have spoken on from the beginning.
e: “It should not surprise us that human beings are, like Nature, interdependent on each other.”
yes as i have been saying for some time now, acknowledging interdependent interconnection is much more accurate than lumping everything into your favorite slogan “we are one.” i would go further in your assessment here in that ‘we’ are not only ‘interdependent on each other’ but more importantly we are interdependent and interconnected to all of Great Nature… this obvious fact is too often overlooked by ‘modern’ people who are conditioned in many ways to be insulated and isolated from the natural world.
Elena:
People are part of the natural world as much as of the world of human beings and the world of other dimensions. The interconnectedness between them all is something I’ve been speaking about since I started writing in the fofblog. I don’t know why you are only inclined to acknowledge it today._________
Ton: e: “The forms within which people live have a structural force that sculpts their inner psychology. What IS outside of our selves, molds our inner as much as outer self in as much as we abide by the force of being one with the whole.”
what you don’t mention here is the importance of nonabiding with the force of being one with the whole…
Elena: We don’t agree on this Ton. It is important to realize that one’s childhood and youth personality is molded by the society one lives in, THAT is the beginning of “conscious consciousness” and awareness of one’s self as an individual separate from the mass of society. It can or cannot conform to the status quo but that initial revolt against the status quo that has conditioned or “programmed” the individual to a great extent is simply the beginning of a long process that can mature into full consciousness or simply reproduce, in the long run, exactly the same patterns that the individual was revolting from.
“Non-abiding with the force” of social conditionings is the first step towards maturity and individuation and it is actually recognized in society by the acceptance of the 21 year old age as maturity but separating and acquiring consciousness of one’s independence of one’s family and society is only an initial step. I don’t know whether this could be approached from the point of view of “steps” for it is not a linear process or one that is prescribed in natural development but I do believe that it is possible for each and every human being, if we look for it with enough will.
As I understand, what you are talking about is this moment in which the individual separates and “individuates” his and herself from the masses of people and their overall unchecked programming but We are One is not about that. It is about the conscious realization that “being” is consciousness of human kind, nature and all cosmoses that are included in those realms as a wholeness. That they are connected and interconnected is almost an oxymoron? because in the realization of their Oneness it is superfluous to state that they are connected and interconnected. It all depends on the dimension from which we are looking at phenomenon. In the physical dimension we see things as being separate but learn of their interconnectedness. Knowledge is knowledge of the whole or partial knowledge and in its partiality and ignorance, tends to deviate into a descending octave.
The stage of separation that you are speaking about in which the individual becomes independent from the immediate society and family is definitely a necessary step in the process of becoming a mature human being but traditionally, that initial separation entails multiple characteristics that run along with it such as “rejection” of some or all “authorities”. That rejection of parents, teachers and other authorities within the status quo may be necessary in the process of individuation for in that process the individual is struggling to acquire his and her own sense of authority. We are trying to stand on our own two feet during that period. One could call it the “No process” and remember that in it one says No to the world as it was presented to one in childhood and youth and begins to present one’s own version of how things are or should be or at least will be in as much as one can participate in them but that is not consciousness of our Oneness.
During that “No process”, some of the main characteristics are rejection, judgement, negation that can turn into aggression, negativity, violence and separation or positively resolve into mature response or both in due course. It is a period of Physical and psychological separation from people and ideas, that mark a time in which one chooses to belong to one or another ideology and lifestyle. In choosing one group of people and ideologies versus another there is a new consciousness in the individual that separates us from the “old” consciousness within family or social group, but this also is not consciousness of our Oneness.
No matter how many groups and ideologies people are prone to move in or out from, as long as they are groups separating from one another or the rest of mankind, they are not conscious of our Oneness.
What is of value to realize in relation to these groups is that they are all conditioned by specific forms of separation that entail points of conflict with each other and that often live out their existence in judgement, aggression and subtle or overt forms of violence.
Without consciousness of our Oneness we will always find points of conflict in our relations because we stand on our egoness against the egoness of the other without the willingness to share what rightfully belongs to all of us. The conflict rises in the sense of egoness in the instinctive consciousness of the individual and is generally related to who owns what, who has a right to what, and can be resolved in the consciousness of Our Rights in relation to what we share.
It is not only that the individual has rights as most people think today and justify all the selfishness of their actions with it, it is that WE all have the same rights and have never actualized that consciousness in our practical lives.
So going back to your affirmation, in my understanding, non-abiding by the mass behavior one was conditioned to live by in one’s youth, is as necessary as abiding by consciousness of our Oneness in the maturity of our lives. What one learns when one can look at life as it is, separate from one’s self, is the STATE of things, the reality of our consciousness today and its manifestation in our actual practical lives, the fact that we are living in a wildly schizophrenic, upside down and backwards period of time with very little consciousness of our Oneness and powerful selfish, egotistic, instinctive consciousness in which people, families and nations are pulling and manipulating ‘life’ towards their own personal advantage, without the compassion or consideration for the whole.
Each stage of consciousness purports particular forms of behavior and that is why becoming conscious of our unconsciousness is so critical to any possible evolution.
Our differences in relation to these issues are critical to our interchanges in relation to cults and our mutual participation in them. What your position on the subject justifies is the same narrow and blind approach to consciousness that was held in the Fellowship cult: That consciousness is an individual enterprise and that people must separate from life to evolve in an individualistic pursuit through sacrifice and effort. That is not the fourth way and aspects of other ways were introduced to enslave people into a severely egotistic precipice. Because such individualism and egotism is already a germinating tendency in society, it is not only possible but relatively easy to enslave people in such cults. These phenomenon are taking place with horrifying “normality” with millions of people belonging to different cultish organizations.
I need to move on to other things today, I’ll address the rest of your post when I have the time.
ton – March 27, 2011 [Edit]
Thank you for posting Ton. I would appreciate it if you would post all your posts here in your page, you can just give us a reference of what post you are addressing. Us is you and I and the others reading in case you wonder again.
here are some more condescending phrases you might find useful…. humor us
1. Thank you. We’re all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.
2. The fact that no one understands you doesn’t mean you’re an artist.
3. I don’t know what your problem is, but I’ll bet it’s hard to pronounce.
4. Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
5. I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don’t care.
6. I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid.
7. What am I? Flypaper for freaks!?
8. I’m not being rude. You’re just insignificant.
9. I’m already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.
10. I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you.
11. It’s a thankless job, but I’ve got a lot of Karma to burn off.
12. Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.
13. No, my powers can only be used for good.
14. How about never? Is never good for you?
15. I’m really easy to get along with once you people learn to worship me.
16. You sound reasonable…Time to up my medication.
17. I’ll try being nicer if you’ll try being smarter.
18. I’m out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message…
19. I don’t work here. I’m a consultant.
20. Who me? I just wander from room to room.
21. My toys! My toys! I can’t do this job without my toys!
22. It might look like I’m doing nothing, but at the cellular level I’m really quite busy.
23. At least I have a positive attitude about my destructive habits.
24. You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.
25. I see you’ve set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public.
26. Someday, we’ll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject.
http://www.avclub.com/austin/articles/we-arent-we-are-the-world-the-art-of-the-worthwhil,41920/
Just for the record post number 4 was posted at the same time a copy of it was posted in the other blog at
Posted by elena at 09:53
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Labels: Ton and Elena on We are One
And Ton’s post was posted at
Submitted on: Mar 27, 2011 @ 11:43 Edit
If a whole page for you is not good enough why don’t you find yourself another blog to participate in?
Continuation of Ton’s post and answer
Ton: the question here is how can your one-way equation work the other way… how does the inner life of the individual give form to and ‘sculpt’ the outside ? i would say that only through the development of individuality is this a possibility… nothing changes in a world where the sheep believe so strongly in a conformist mantra like “we are one.”
Elena: I would thoroughly agree with you if we take into consideration what I said about We are One before that. There has to be an individual or an identity PRESENT for there to be an ACT and not simply a repetition of the same forms but there is a huge difference when that happens in relation to what happened before. The processes are upside down and backwards to each other. In the first process that we’ve been talking about in which the individual is a passive entity being molded by the outside world there are various phases that would need to be studied more carefully and some of them are legitimate and therefore positive but if the process is not overcome at the right time then it transforms into an illegitimate process with descending, decaying characteristics and the individual turns against his own self and the society in which he or she live. “Turns against” in the sense that they enter an involuting rather than an evoluting process. Something worth noticing about this phase is that the outside world is active and the individual is passive. The individual is being molded and hardly has an effect on the forces that mold him or her. When the individual separates from the particular group or “smaller unit” or “immediate organism” that he or she initially belonged to, there is a “change”. As I write about this it is somewhat shocking to me how similar the process of reproduction is: Two forces unite and create a whole new being within one of the beings that then separates from it and develops his and her own life. It’s surprising to me that our “life”, “socio-cultural life” moves very much under the same patterns or could we actually call them laws? But let’s not deviate from the point. I was saying that it is worth noticing that the outside world is active and the individual passive but the perception the individual has of the phenomenon is very much of being tremendously active. It is probably the process of Growth as conceived in the System. The individual feels him and herself very active towards the world but is in fact essentially passive in that he and she are not yet mature or “individuated” enough to have become active in the true sense of the term. The “Wold” ACTS on them and they allow for its action like a plant growing into flower.
But once the flower is open and has the capacity to reproduce itself and form new flowers, once the individual is mature enough to act legitimately, THEN we can talk about an “individual” with “identity”. It’s interesting that we can only then say that there actually is an identity because before that there is “identification” but not identity.
Again, here it doesn’t mean that a human being is not a sacred being from the moment they are born but that to be in essence is different as to having developed a full spirit.
Back to the point again. The outside world is active and the individual passive even though they feel strongly active in the process of growth. There is a ‘budding’ I in its full capacity struggling to become like a sperm trying to reach the ovum but what actually determines the outcome is the state of the organism in which all that is taking place: the womb, the society in which the individual is meant to develop.
When the individual matures into consciousness of the Whole, when they become mature enough not only to reproduce physically but to Act out the consciousness of their self that includes the consciousness of everything around them: people as much as nature and within both their multiple dimensions, what is interesting to observe is that the interaction between the individual and the “world” that surrounds them becomes “objective”. The world has an “objective” effect on the mature identity and the mature identity has an objective effect on the world it lives itself out in. Perhaps I would define subjectivity as having an effect in only one dimension but objectivity as having an effect in all dimensions. The power of an objective act is that it permeates the being as much as the beings around it while a subjective act basically affects the individual involved and maintains the inertia of the status quo. No innovation, creation or originality is possible and the repetition becomes vicious over time. While repetition tends to strengthen the will for some time, if no progress accompanies it, it tends to stifle and involute the process._____________
Ton: elena: “We are all living out a hierarchic sovereignty in which we act out our superiority towards others. We struggle to put others down so as to float above, mostly because we are ourselves so tremendously depressed in a world that values nobody.”
yes elena, i couldn’t agree more… i’m glad that you’re learning to see yourself through our interactions.
Elena: Your misinterpretation of my affirmations and your need to give your self credits that you don’t have reveal your state much more than my self. What I mean with that affirmation is that the millions of people committing suicide, the millions being killed like cockroaches the world over reveal the tremendous depression of our selves as human beings. We are not conscious of our humanity and are killing each other like rats within nations and internationally. The puffed up world in which you seem to limit your existence to might no be aware of the abundant crime that is happening today but if you only dared to look beyond the charismatic prism that you seem to enjoy to stand up and demeanor the few people that you do interact with without ever seriously putting an effort to add something of value, you might actually begin to live your life out with love._____________________
Ton: while you’re on the subject, here is an author i can recommend:
http://danielgoleman.info/
‘Here at The Corporation, we believe in working hard, and productivity. But we also believe in team. Because it was The Corporation that first recognized how profitable society could be if we all forgot ourselves and just worked together. Working together has provided us with jobs and happiness…a world built on (war and) peace… (holding up a piece of plastic) And plastic…where everything is wonderful and…above all… Magic! We’ve got great things in store for the future, because the corporate way is THE way…but don’t take my word for it, just listen to this… ‘
Visioneers
Elena: This last part seems like more of what you actually believe in but pretend to be superior to. What would be interesting about studying that is realizing how they use the same principles but against themselves and others but you don’t realize that. You think that pointing a finger at them and thinking you are better makes you greater but it only reveals the same unconsciousness process.
I sincerely thank you for your participation. It is unfortunate that you stand so far apart and still have to resource to such lowlessness to address me. It is not only that you should treat me like a monarch because I am a legitimate human being, it is that when we are unable to treat others like that, we are ourselves far below our own humaneness and keep each other in degenerative processes. This has of course become “normal” for you, as you prove in the next post in which making fun of it and demeanoring me is understood as “humor” but that humor is only a buffer disguising the aggression.
We are One and I thank you for the friction with which you enter my world so that I learn to better acknowledge and impregnate my self with your suffering. If I treat you anything else than a monarch, that is, a legitimate human being, then I am myself far from achieving the consciousness that I am after. Democracy is the social realization of our selves as human beings, each monarchs in a society in which no one enslaves or mistreats anyone else.
on the one hand you can barely tolerate the fact that i continue to exist:
e: “why don’t you find yourself another blog to participate in?”
and on the other hand you say: “I sincerely thank you for your participation.”
you’ve got me segregated away safely in a box where i can’t ‘ruin’ your monoblog…. although you attempt to cover up the fact with a mountain of words it’s apparent to me that you are confused elena… i’m not going to get involved in the tit-for-tat quibbling which is so typical of this exchange with you, it leads only in circles within circles and it resolves nothing… it’s simply not worth the painstaking effort required to sort through the barrage of words with which you attempt to bury the fact of the matter… but i will respond to a couple of issues here in order to illustrate my point and hopefully (for your sake), some of your confusion can begin to clear through stimulating a process of your own self-examination.
e: “We are One and I thank you for the friction with which you enter my world so that I learn to better acknowledge and impregnate my self with your suffering.”
you see elena, if you could truly “be the words” of your favorite slogan, then you would realize and acknowledge that if “we are one” then it’s your own suffering you are talking about… but instead you project this ‘suffering’ onto me which is just another attempt on your part to separate yourself from, and elevate yourself above my supposedly ‘poor and sad state’ which you look down upon in judgment from your imagined superiority, and identify as my ‘lowly’ condition of “suffering” — while you rise above it and in the process use the suffering of another to inflate yourself (‘impregnate my self ‘ is the phrase you used). you see elena, if you truly and deeply knew and truly lived that favorite slogan of yours (“we are one”), then there would be no use for this silly game of superiority/inferiority one-upmanship that you are so fond of playing.
e: “If I treat you anything else than a monarch, that is, a legitimate human being, then I am myself far from achieving the consciousness that I am after.”
the question for you is not “IF” — it’s a question of how often, how, when and where do you treat another as anything less than… obviously it’s quite a bit more often than you are aware of and that’s what you should REALISTICALLY be looking at elena. look elena, i certainly don’t expect or necessarily want to be treated like a “monarch” (what world are you living in anyway?)… what i would expect is to be treated as an equal, which is something you are apprently still learning about. you don’t even realize when you are trying to put me down in order to step on me in order to give credence to your own inflated ego. why the inflated ego? see the wiki article below as a place to start your researches. no elena it’s not a question of “IF” — the question is one of discovering how, where, and when you treat me (and others) as inferiors in the playing out of a superiority complex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_complex
“Democracy is the social realization of our selves as human beings, each monarchs in a society in which no one enslaves or mistreats anyone else.”
in the real world elena, democracy is the antithesis of monarchy… please don’t continue to confuse the monarch who prefers to speak for her subjects (“we are one”), with the ideal of democracy which implies the individual speaking for herself as an individual…. two different things entirely.
leave it to an egoist (or should i say a someone who likes to call herself a “monarch”), to confuse egoism with her own narcissistic tendencies… egoism is an ethical theory that treats (enlightened) self-interest as the foundation of morality. on the other hand egotism is the practice of talking and thinking about oneself excessively because of an undue sense of self-importance…
elena, unlike you in your preaching of “oneness” i don’t think we (that’s you and i), stand so far apart on certain issues… (although when you attempt to insult or belittle me that does tend to widen the divide). what you don’t seem to recognize or acknowledge is that it’s all a matter of perspective, you don’t recognize or acknowledge the validity of different perspectives because you have a certain deeply felt need to always be right and to always have the final word on any given topic. if you examine the situation i’m sure you can agree… and that if you take a stand for “we are one” which merely represents one point of view and not the absolute and final word…. it’s incredibly stupid and narrow minded to think that this is the final word and that another perspective cannot shed some more light… you act as if another perspective must necessarily be rejected out of hand because it doesn’t issue from you, the “monarch.”
sure, from 200 kilometers up the earth looks like a single luminous egg floating alone in space…. the planet is an organism and in that sense every discrete form of life on her is part of the whole…. this is nothing new, it’s as old as the earth herself. but seen from another perspective that is just as valid and just as ‘true’ — the ‘reality’ of the situation here on the ground is that the earth is formed of ‘we’, that means all of ‘us’ as individual organisms and this fact, this reality is responsible for much of the strife and turmoil which plagues the planet…. in that sense we are not just ONE, it is more accurate to say we are many who are interconnected and interdependent. it is this later condition which gives rise to conflict.
speaking of conflict, what i object to in your soapbox diatribe is the myopic insistence that you are right while anyone who takes another perspective is wrong. what i also object to is that when using the ‘royal we’ you would be so arrogant and presumptuous to think that you can speak for me as an individual…. i don’t know where you get the idea that this is o.k. to do… i have a feeling it issues from the same source as does this formulation of yourself as a “monarch” — maybe you spent too much time on the imaginary top of the follyship pyramid scheme ? you will never speak for me elena, that is what i object to… it is the arrogance that makes you think you can do so that i’ve objected to all along…. when you speak for yourself then you’ll have my attention and my respect. what i object to is that you think you can presume to sit on your high horse and to speak for “we” for “us” as if you were a “monarch.” inserting your perspective in place of my own individuality, and your unaware habits of presuming to be able to speak for others, that’s what i will always object to… in any form…. in your case as a petty “monarch” and in the case of politicos and the more influential and grandiose variety of petty despots… you see it’s the same mentality, your own circle of influence is thankfully more limited and that’s the only difference between you and those like you who have the audacity and the arrogance to throw slogans around like “we are one” and presume to speak for ‘the masses.’ maybe another difference would be that you’re less clever than the professional politicos who are able to use these types of slogans to further their narcissism and their own egoistic motives…. the fact that you’re not so clever as to manipulate others with this sort of nonsense, is probably to your benefit and to “ours” — you see, i don’t need another petty ‘monarch’ to speak or to think for me.
e: “The puffed up world in which you seem to limit your existence to might no be aware of the abundant crime that is happening today but if you only dared to look beyond the charismatic prism that you seem to enjoy to stand up and demeanor the few people that you do interact with without ever seriously putting an effort to add something of value, you might actually begin to live your life out with love.”
when you attack me like this, i know i’ve hit a nerve… you might want to examine this elena, it sounds like you are projecting something of yourself into your idea of me (the other)…. you really have no idea of what my world is like or the nature of my interactions in it…. withdraw projections elena.
Hello Ton,
If you cared to read me carefully you would understand what I am saying and how I mean and use the word monarch as much as many other things, but you don’t care to read or understand, you just enjoy putting me down with sarcasm or that so called aggression that you call humor. So much lowlessness that you indulge in… only hurting your own self: US.
It is more than fine for me if we don’t agree and I don’t need to call you names for disagreeing like you are so eager to call me. There is an essential respect that you cannot bring yourself to hold and that leaves very little room for a dialogue.
You are well treated here but you do not treat well. You have a page for yourself because you deserve it. It is plenty even though you look down on it. Were I to not consider you worth it you would be simply banned.
You think that I think myself superior and am narcissistic because I don’t agree with many things you or others say and I don’t think that is a narcissistic or superiority complex. On the contrary, what motivates a person to work as I do is something totally different. It is a worthwhile struggle in the process of becoming. I am studying and exploring a subject and make good effort in that whether you or anyone else values it. What I don’t understand is why, since your valuation is nil why do you keep participating here? Why is it Ton that you cannot bring any beauty from within yourself and share it with the world but delight on putting everything I stand for down in every one of your posts? Why have you lost the capacity for empathy?
The fact that you find so horrifying that I say We are One and speak for you is just your identification. I am speaking for myself. For me, We are One. Am I not entitled to live by that if that is my choice? Do you have to call me names because I so choose? That We are One is a fact to me and it is fine with me if for you it is a slogan or however you wish to put it. You have not understood a word I said in that post. It is a complex one, worth reading carefully. If You don’t want to hear what is actually in it, so what Ton? You haven’t wanted harmony in these two, four years, why would anyone wish that from you? Can’t I just love you with all your complaints and attacks? Like a grumpy friend that repeats himself over and over again and still matters to us because we’ve gotten used to his negative presence?
You think I can barely tolerate that you exist but that is because you are unwilling to acknowledge every positive expression that I send out to you. You can neither take nor give positive things, forgive or apologize but with all your negativity you can’t get yourself to leave, like a couple in a bad marriage.
I am at least happy to know that you are here because you choose to and we will continue to disagree for a long, long time because agreeing is not a sine qua non condition to belong to the Public Square. As long as the lowlessness doesn’t descend into crime and abuse I can take a great deal of disagreement.
What you really seem to like is to talk about US, personal things, inner conditions. You seem unable to move beyond US and yet hate the fact that We are One. You never actually address things in life objectively, you always have to put whatever you say in the context of teaching me a lesson or demeanoring what I say, in other words, you can never move beyond our subjectivity. And then when I actually address you like this, you think I am insulting or hurting you. It’s a difficult and delicate thing especially because I am now convinced that there is so much love. If I had been given some of that love when I was as negative as you are, my suffering after the fellowship wouldn’t have expressed itself so violently.
Love is in the connectedness and whether the expression of that connectedness takes a negative or a positive bent, the connectedness keeps working on the being and people become part of each other and begin to realize their Oneness. We are One Ton, We Human Beings are One Being. It is fine if you do not agree and don’t wish to be part of that Oneness and in not being conscious of it, justify all the separations you wish to have with people, but you don’t have to call me names because I am not interested in the lovelessness that you so enjoy.
This Oneness is the most magnificent experience I’ve ever had and cannot turn myself against it. My words are like mud in pigsty in relation to that Oneness. I’ve failed to live up to it enough to continue failing because you so wish it. This Oneness makes Kings look like toddlers and toddlers like Kings! That we are all Monarchs is a reality for me and if that is not in your world or can fit in it, I am sorry for your world in which people allow to be treated less than a human being.
In time we will realize that Democracy is the right of individuals to every right that was in its times, alloted to kings. The right to speak and decide, to be treated with decency, to serve and be served by people in a State of “love”, that is, to serve with one’s work for the development of ‘life’. To belong to the Kingdom of Human Beings without racial, national, social or academic separations. To love and be loved. To die at the service of the whole and to be honored in one’s death for one’s life and work was legitimately valued. To be graceful and grateful, to have the pride and the humility of being One with the Universe, One with every realm of Existence, One with every living and deceased soul. To treat with dignity and be treated with dignity for One is dignified and so are All others and so is Life itself. To walk the path of compassion, not in the sorrow of guilt but in the pride of being. To take responsability for one’s mistakes and sufferings and stand up again and again like a hero and face the struggle that is put at one’s feet and in one’s hands. To Love. To Be.
You are a free man Ton, you can choose to be something else. Millions of people, millions and millions of people might take many generations to realize the consciousness of our humaneness but there is no other dignified path for the human being.
i think part of your problem with me is that i actually read you more ‘carefully’ than you like…. i look beneath the surface and in the process question some of your motives and that makes you uncomfortable. a problem with you elena is that you take yourself way too seriously, did you even stop for a moment to consider the difference between the ego/egoism and egotism… you have a very deeply held sense of self-importance… this condition also renders you hypersensitive to any point of view which diverges from your own and the most unfortunate condition which grows out of your exaggerated sense of self-importance is that you seem to be completely humorless.
several times you say that i called you names… i think you are imagining things again elena…. i did point out some of the things i find objectionable about your attitude….but there was no ‘name calling’ — other than ‘elena.’ i’ll say it again because you obviously ignored the point, what i find most objectionable are the various manifestations of your apparent superiority complex… did you even bother to read the wiki link on Adler ?
speaking of ’empathy’ let’s just go through your last post so that you may see yourself through the eyes of another…. i’ll jot down here some of the ways you attempt to put another below you…. and i quote:
” you don’t care… you just enjoy putting me down with sarcasm.. that so called aggression that you call humor. So much lowlessness that you indulge in… only hurting your own self…. There is an essential respect that you cannot bring yourself to hold and that leaves very little room for a dialogue…. You are well treated here but you do not treat well…. It is plenty even though you look down on it. Were I to not consider you worth it you would be simply banned….”
(segregating me here in my own ‘cell’ IS a form of banishment elena, you don’t want to admit to it or banish me outright because it would be ‘politically incorrect’ and it would contradict what you’ve been saying. it would make you look like a hypocrite to banish me outright so you take the next best option and banish me to what you think of as the corner, the periphery, the margins. the main reason you keep me around here in isolation is for your own purposes, to you i’m merely a diversion from your ‘real work,’ i’m a plaything for you elena, and since i give you some attention you are willing to tolerate me… but barely).
to continue:
“since your valuation is nil why do you keep participating here? Why is it Ton that you cannot bring any beauty from within yourself and share it with the world but delight on putting everything I stand for down in every one of your posts? Why have you lost the capacity for empathy?”
yes elena, i could say the same of you… do you see all of the negativity in your writing/thinking? here’s some more:
“The fact that you find so horrifying that I say We are One and speak for you is just your identification.”
i wouldn’t describe it as ‘horrifying’ at all… and ‘identification’ with the idea is something you should look at in yourself.
“Do you have to call me names…?”
what ‘names’ elena?
“You have not understood a word I said… You haven’t wanted harmony in these two, four years, why would anyone wish that from you… all your complaints and attacks… a grumpy friend that repeats himself over and over again…. we’ve gotten used to his negative presence… I can barely tolerate that you exist but that is because you are unwilling to acknowledge every positive expression that I send out to you. You can neither take nor give positive things, forgive or apologize but with all your negativity you can’t get yourself to leave”
i hope you will look at this and see all of the negativity that YOU actually ‘send out.’
“…the lowlessness… You seem unable to move beyond US and yet hate the fact that We are One….”
no elena, i don’t hate anything, i’ll say it again, i object to the arrogance of anyone who thinks that she can speak for me and everyone else.
“…I am insulting or hurting you…”
yes you are and you know it, at least if you read between the lines you are admitting to it… and don’t deny it.
“…when I was as negative as you are…”
there you go again elena… so you are placing yourself in a superior position again. i’m not negative elena, what i’m doing with you is called ‘fighting fire with fire,’ i’m holding up the mirror so that you can see yourself… and i think on some level it’s working.
” It is fine if you do not agree and don’t wish to be part of that Oneness and in not being conscious of it…”
oh dear elena, i’m ‘not conscious’ eh– gee, where have i heard that before? now that i’m excluded from your exclusive club of ‘conscious’ enlightenment, the ‘we are one’ club… just pitiful.
“…justify all the separations you wish to have with people, but you don’t have to call me names because I am not interested in the lovelessness that you so enjoy.”
gee elena what names am i calling you? i know you prefer the amorphous perspective described by ‘we are one’ — your intransigent insistence sounds to me very much like a vestige of your long-time involvement in the brainwashing of the cult. in looking at things ‘objectively’ it is important to draw distinctions… you frame this approach negatively by saying that i’m justifying “separations with people” — what lovelessness are you so enjoying elena?
“My words are like mud in pigsty… ’ve failed to live up to it enough to continue failing because you so wish it.”
absolute baseless nonsense tinged with self-pity and an inversion of inflated self-importance.
“I am sorry for your world in which people allow to be treated less than a human being.”
what do you know about ‘my world’ elena? i will ask you to consider: how are you attempting to treat me here… always diminishing and marginalizing the other, does that make you feel better about yourself?
“You are a free man Ton, you can choose to be something else.”
gee elena, thanks for your permission… isn’t it you who continually accuses me of trying to make you into ‘something else’? you might want to look a little more deeply at this.
“In time we will realize that Democracy is the right of individuals to every right that was in its times, alloted to kings. The right to speak and decide, to be treated with decency, to serve and be served by people in a State of “love”, that is, to serve with one’s work for the development of ‘life’. To belong to the Kingdom of Human Beings without racial, national, social or academic separations. To love and be loved. To die at the service of the whole and to be honored in one’s death for one’s life and work was legitimately valued. To be graceful and grateful, to have the pride and the humility of being One with the Universe, One with every realm of Existence, One with every living and deceased soul. To treat with dignity and be treated with dignity for One is dignified and so are All others and so is Life itself. To walk the path of compassion, not in the sorrow of guilt but in the pride of being. To take responsability for one’s mistakes and sufferings and stand up again and again like a hero and face the struggle that is put at one’s feet and in one’s hands. Millions of people, millions and millions of people might take many generations to realize the consciousness of our humaneness but there is no other dignified path for the human being.”
grandiose blustering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiosity
i think part of your problem with me is that i actually read you more ‘carefully’ than you like…. i look beneath the surface and in the process question some of your motives and that makes you uncomfortable. a problem with you elena is that you take yourself way too seriously, did you even stop for a moment to consider the difference between the ego/egoism and egotism… you have a very deeply held sense of self-importance… this condition also renders you hypersensitive to any point of view which diverges from your own and the most unfortunate condition which grows out of your exaggerated sense of self-importance is that you seem to be completely humorless.
several times you say that i called you names… i think you are imagining things again elena…. i did point out some of the things i find objectionable about your attitude….but there was no ‘name calling’ — other than ‘elena.’ i’ll say it again because you obviously ignored the point, what i find most objectionable are the various manifestations of your apparent superiority complex… did you even bother to read the wiki link on Adler ?
speaking of ‘empathy’ let’s just go through your last post so that you may see yourself through the eyes of another…. i’ll jot down here some of the ways you attempt to put another below you…. and i quote:
” you don’t care… you just enjoy putting me down with sarcasm.. that so called aggression that you call humor. So much lowlessness that you indulge in… only hurting your own self…. There is an essential respect that you cannot bring yourself to hold and that leaves very little room for a dialogue…. You are well treated here but you do not treat well…. It is plenty even though you look down on it. Were I to not consider you worth it you would be simply banned….”
(segregating me here in my own ‘cell’ IS a form of banishment elena, you don’t want to admit to it or banish me outright because it would be ‘politically incorrect’ and it would contradict what you’ve been saying. it would make you look like a hypocrite to banish me outright so you take the next best option and banish me to what you think of as the corner, the periphery, the margins. the main reason you keep me around here in isolation is for your own purposes, to you i’m merely a diversion from your ‘real work,’ i’m a plaything for you elena, and since i give you some attention you are willing to tolerate me… but barely).
to continue:
“since your valuation is nil why do you keep participating here? Why is it Ton that you cannot bring any beauty from within yourself and share it with the world but delight on putting everything I stand for down in every one of your posts? Why have you lost the capacity for empathy?”
yes elena, i could say the same of you… do you see all of the negativity in your writing/thinking? here’s some more:
“The fact that you find so horrifying that I say We are One and speak for you is just your identification.”
i wouldn’t describe it as ‘horrifying’ at all… and ‘identification’ with the idea is something you should look at in yourself.
“Do you have to call me names…?”
what ‘names’ elena?
“You have not understood a word I said… You haven’t wanted harmony in these two, four years, why would anyone wish that from you… all your complaints and attacks… a grumpy friend that repeats himself over and over again…. we’ve gotten used to his negative presence… I can barely tolerate that you exist but that is because you are unwilling to acknowledge every positive expression that I send out to you. You can neither take nor give positive things, forgive or apologize but with all your negativity you can’t get yourself to leave”
i hope you will look at this and see all of the negativity that YOU actually ‘send out.’
“…the lowlessness… You seem unable to move beyond US and yet hate the fact that We are One….”
no elena, i don’t hate anything, i’ll say it again, i object to the arrogance of anyone who thinks that she can speak for me and everyone else.
“…I am insulting or hurting you…”
yes you are and you know it, at least if you read between the lines you are admitting to it… and don’t deny it.
“…when I was as negative as you are…”
there you go again elena… so you are placing yourself in a superior position again. i’m not negative elena, what i’m doing with you is called ‘fighting fire with fire,’ i’m holding up the mirror so that you can see yourself… and i think on some level it’s working.
” It is fine if you do not agree and don’t wish to be part of that Oneness and in not being conscious of it…”
oh dear elena, i’m ‘not conscious’ eh– gee, where have i heard that before? now that i’m excluded from your exclusive club of ‘conscious’ enlightenment, the ‘we are one’ club… just pitiful.
“…justify all the separations you wish to have with people, but you don’t have to call me names because I am not interested in the lovelessness that you so enjoy.”
gee elena what names am i calling you? i know you prefer the amorphous perspective described by ‘we are one’ — your intransigent insistence sounds to me very much like a vestige of your long-time involvement in the brainwashing of the cult. in looking at things ‘objectively’ it is important to draw distinctions… you frame this approach negatively by saying that i’m justifying “separations with people” — what lovelessness are you so enjoying elena?
“My words are like mud in pigsty… ’ve failed to live up to it enough to continue failing because you so wish it.”
absolute baseless nonsense tinged with self-pity and an inversion of inflated self-importance.
“I am sorry for your world in which people allow to be treated less than a human being.”
what do you know about ‘my world’ elena? i will ask you to consider: how are you attempting to treat me here… always diminishing and marginalizing the other, does that make you feel better about yourself?
“You are a free man Ton, you can choose to be something else.”
gee elena, thanks for your permission… isn’t it you who continually accuses me of trying to make you into ‘something else’? you might want to look a little more deeply at this.
“In time we will realize that Democracy is the right of individuals to every right that was in its times, alloted to kings. The right to speak and decide, to be treated with decency, to serve and be served by people in a State of “love”, that is, to serve with one’s work for the development of ‘life’. To belong to the Kingdom of Human Beings without racial, national, social or academic separations. To love and be loved. To die at the service of the whole and to be honored in one’s death for one’s life and work was legitimately valued. To be graceful and grateful, to have the pride and the humility of being One with the Universe, One with every realm of Existence, One with every living and deceased soul. To treat with dignity and be treated with dignity for One is dignified and so are All others and so is Life itself. To walk the path of compassion, not in the sorrow of guilt but in the pride of being. To take responsability for one’s mistakes and sufferings and stand up again and again like a hero and face the struggle that is put at one’s feet and in one’s hands. Millions of people, millions and millions of people might take many generations to realize the consciousness of our humaneness but there is no other dignified path for the human being.”
grandiose blustering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiosity
Reply
11. Elena – March 30, 2011 [Edit]
Thank you Ton, at least in this post your sarcasm is much more under control. It is not that I am being negative for stating the facts, but that it is negative to practice them as consistently as you do.
We don’t agree and that is all right!
You deny everything I say and that is fine.
You think it is grandiose blustering and narcissism and I am willing to take that. You don’t realize the difference between greatness and grandiosity and conform the human being to anything less than a Monarch. You wish to put everything I stand up for down one way or another and you can do it for your self but you cannot impose that on me, as I cannot impose beauty on you.
I am as free to stand up for what I wish to as you and don’t have to change to have your approval. I do not need your approval Ton. A dialogue would have been enjoyable but you don’t know how to dialogue or stand up for your understanding with clear reasoning, your structures are not transparent. You dismiss the points attacking the person which is a well known technique of taking attention away from the issues or give homework because you yourself don’t know the lesson. Again, as in all other posts, you reduce the subject to our subjectivities and in so doing reveal your understanding. I’ve given you a page because you’ve proved that your only aim here is to mark my misgivings, not address the subjects. There is no need for you to be in the pages with subjects because you don’t read them, address them or wish to understand them. I hear all your criticism, I thank you for it. It is not that I feel in any way superior to you or anyone else for that matter, it is that the argument is based on solid enough ground and you are unable to deconstruct it or actually deal with it, not because you are inferior, We are One Ton, but because you are not willing to make the intellectual effort. You are biased before you’ve even begun and you’ve been angry with me long before you can remember. It is all in these blogs for anyone wishing to look at it and you are right in having being angry with my anger but my apologies have been of no worth, you cannot take anything positive.
It is a fact that I believe in what I am standing up for as the most humane approach to the problems at hand and I might very well be mistaken but until I am shown the contrary with serious enough argument and facts I will continue to stand up for it. I also believe that in a democracy there is such a freedom: to stand up for what one believes, so I have that right wether you like it or not and we will live under those freedoms in this blog for as long as possible. As long as you limit yourself to disagreeing without abusive language or behavior, you can use as much space as you find fitting. It is a great deal more than I was given in the FOFBlog for disagreeing with you and your manipulative discourse.
I feel very good these days Ton and wish the same for you. Life out of the cult has proved promising and little by little I recover the integrity of being. You have been right about very many things but you don’t have the love that is needed for a dialogue. Never the less I value your presence and consistency. In this friction, we polish our being.
i’ll attempt to point out where you are actually doing what you so frequently accuse me of doing (that’s projection). i’ll go through your post (again) and jot down where you attack me…. and you are fooling yourself if you think you are doing otherwise. i hope that at some point the light goes on and you can see your projections and then work on withdrawing them (i do think we are making progress in this regard… it has been a difficult road and i admit that it’s a little ‘unorthodox’ to do so much ‘mirroring’ with you but i sense some movement in the right direction).
e: “your sarcasm is much more under control.”
re: sarcasm… you are an expert…. why do you feel you need to control my expressions of sarcasm ? do you see it in yourself? some sarcasm can be humorous, do you recognize that or you are you too self-important and completely humorless?
“….I am being negative for stating the facts…”
you confuse your opinions with facts… two different things entirely… and yes you are being negative.
“but that it is negative to practice them as consistently as you do…”
look in the mirror elena.
“…you don’t know how to dialogue or stand up for your understanding with clear reasoning, your structures are not transparent.”
i have been very clear with you elena, in fact too clear and ‘penetrating’ for your liking… it is in fact you who attempts to obfuscate what i suggest with piles of words and ‘structures.’
“You dismiss the points attacking the person which is a well known technique of taking attention away from the issues…”
this is another attack on me elena… you would like to DICTATE THE ISSUES here but in fact i determine what is of interest TO ME and when i don’t conform to your expectations or your ‘dictates’ it aggravates you to no end… do you know what I THINK would be a really interesting issue to get to exlpore elena, i would like to hear a considered in-depth self-analysis of your own control issues… let’s get to the bottom of things elena… for the sake of ‘transparency.’
another personal attack:
“…because you yourself don’t know the lesson.”
(no elena, i don’t claim to know everything, please teach me…)
“…you reduce the subject to our subjectivities and in so doing reveal your understanding.”
you again attack and imagine this to be an insult because the “subjective” in your estimation is somehow ‘inferior’ to the “objective.” this whole notion of the values and ideas contained in the “subjective” vs “objective” should be examined — and especially in the light of your favorite refrain “we are one.”
“I’ve given you a page because you’ve proved that your only aim here is to mark my misgivings, not address the subjects.”
you’ve marginalized me from the beginning elena, that’s the nature of a superiority complex, it needs to have an imagined ‘inferior’ around in order to feel superior to…
“There is no need for you to be in the pages with subjects because you don’t read them, address them or wish to understand them.”
there you go again elena, justifying your need to marginalize me… and in the process putting yourself above me by saying that i don’t understand, that you are dealing with ‘issues’ that are beyond my intellectual capabilities… that’s just laughable elena, you really do suppose that you are superior to me… think about it elena, what is this need to feel superior really about? do you know? do you even care? oh ya, i do read ‘the pages’ and i address what i choose to…
” I hear all your criticism, I thank you for it. It is not that I feel in any way superior to you or anyone else for that matter, it is that the argument is based on solid enough ground and you are unable to deconstruct it or actually deal with it, not because you are inferior, We are One Ton, but because you are not willing to make the intellectual effort.”
now this is interesting… here you say that you ‘hear all’ my ‘criticism’ and you thank me… i think you are partly sincere in this… but only insofar as that my ‘criticisms’ give you some of the attention you are starving for… that is what you are grateful for… you actually put very little if any credence in what i say… especially if it flies in the face of your own biases, beliefs and ideas about your self…. and as it turns out most of what i say here does just that. but then you go on to deny the obvious fact that you IN FACT DO imagine yourself to be superior… re-read the few examples i’ve ‘deconstructed’ for you just in this post… you say that i am not able to ‘deal with it’ (i’m not sure what ‘it’ refers to in this attack) but this obviously implies my ‘inferiority’ again and with it, your superiority, yet you dissemble in the very next breath and cover it up with your favorite mantra (“we are one”) and end by implying my lack of ‘intellectual effort’ thus making me your imagined inferior… again. what a load of bombastic nonsense this is elena… you can fool yourself but you don’t fool me for even a nanosecond.
“You are biased before you’ve even begun and you’ve been angry with me long before you can remember.”
another personal attack… and another:
“…you cannot take anything positive.”
and yet another attempt to rationalize your continual diminishing of me, the other:
“…you don’t have the love that is needed for a dialogue.”
elena, where is the love in you when you make a hateful statement like this?
and then there is this line which says so much about you and your myopia:
“You don’t realize the difference between greatness and grandiosity and conform the human being to anything less than a Monarch.”
re: ‘criticism:’ no one really likes criticism because it shrinks the ego a bit but some of ‘us’ need to have the ego shrunk a bit… as a rule, egotists in particular do not take criticism well and sometimes display “narcissistic rage” in the face of criticism or perceived ‘insult.’ it’s normal for an infant to have an inflated sense of egotism – ‘”Her Majesty the Baby”…”Her Majesty the Ego” — Her Majesty the ‘Monarch’ — this should be very familiar to you…. but when development is optimal there is a gradual reconciliation to a more realistic view of one’s place in the world – as ‘swollen heads’ get smaller…. if the swollen head fails to get smaller then ‘a shrink’ is required… otherwise, failure to adjust may lead to defensive egotism which comes from “compensation or defense against a negative or fragile self-concept.” egotism means not giving equal importance to the wider perspective – the one where your ego is still there, but it’s taking its proper limited place among other egos… this is something you appear to have a hard time with… you have the need to feel you are on top, to have the ultimate and final word, to control… you tend to have an an unrealistic sense of superiority, you view yourself as better than others, which leads to the narcissistic view that others are inferior and therefore they are “justifiably” treated with disdain… just look at the way you’ve treated me elena… this behavior comes at least partly from years of conditioning (brainwashing) by your place in the cult hierarchy…. it’s not ok to treat others with such arrogance and disdain elena, and when someone gives you the same treatment back as i do here, you are rightly outraged… this tells me that somewhere in the recesses of your soul you still realize that it’s not ok to treat others with this type of arrogant disdain, as if another is inferior to you the ‘monarch’ — you can recognize this behavior when it is directed toward you but you fail to see it in yourself… it’s time to recognize when you are doing it yourself elena, otherwise it just doesn’t stop. you see your own grandiosity, your conditioned reality filters as “greatness” or “beauty” or “factual.” you carry with you a sense of entitlement, of ‘uniqueness,’ you live in the belief that you are ‘royalty’ and that you exist on a plane far above the muddled masses whom you presume to speak for and in so doing the implication is that you have nothing in common with those for whom you pretend to speak. you can only be understood by a few very special people…. this is pure cult conditioning. it appears that you regard yourself as unique or special when compared to other people, and as generally superior to others… from my vantage point you tend to come off in a boastful, pretentious way. it appears that certain self-beliefs lead to an attitude that anything unpleasant to your self-image you simply ignore and fail to acknowledge. you look down your nose with contempt at the child-like ways of others, like me for example whom you’ve sequestered here in a box at the ‘child’s table’ since you imagine me as your ‘intellectual inferior’ and you rationalize this behavior toward me since i don’t ‘understand’ what you are writing on ‘the pages.’ you can get rid of your infantile self by pushing her somewhere outside of yourself, by treating me as an inferior — that’s projection elena. the downside to putting yourself into this imaginary elevated state is that a grandiose self is extremely vulnerable, and when something doesn’t go your way, you make a great fuss, because you are a queen, a ‘monarch’ who has been frustrated. egotism is an exaggerated estimate of intellect, ability, importance, appearance, wit, personal characteristics, etc, – it is the drive to maintain and enhance a favorable self-image…. egotism is a kind of socialized narcissism, a grandiose sense of self-importance, arrogant, boastful, conceited and self-promoting at the expense of others – refusing to recognise others but ironically toward this end, others are used as inferiors in order to boost and inflate an imagined superior self-image…. in general you have almost never been able to treat me as an equal, or to acknowledge anything i say… i am continually marginalized and treated as something less than you, your overweening sense of self-importance is bolstered by this behavior toward me, the other.
“In order to kill the demon of egotism (Madāsura) who had attacked him, Gaṇeśa Vighnarāja throws his lotus at him. Unable to bear the fragrance of the divine flower, the demon surrenders to Gaṇeśa.”
i am happy to hear that you feel ‘very good these days’… “recovery” is a process which takes time but using that word may be a bit of a misnomer; we never really “recover” what we were in the sense that we are forever changed by experience and cannot go back to being what was. “uncovering” and “discovery” may be terms that are more apropos to the process than “recovery” — uncovering what lead up to what we have become now and and discovering where to go from here… i’m sure you do feel better in relative freedom after the oppressions of cult life.
http://www.stephenprothero.com/books/
A dialogue happens between people who ‘treat’ each other as equals and you think you are a doctor here! The saddest part is that you can’t hear your patient or value her, you have to try to take all the confidence away from her so that you can justify your treatment just like Girard and Robert in the cult and the whole cult institution does on people including all pseudo-religions. I am glad at least that my own husband vaccinated me against the sort of you. You must make people believe that they are sick, not good enough, mustn’t trust themselves and all the rest of the agenda you express here so that you can justify the fact that you cannot connect with the human within your self or theirs. You are a sick man Ton, just like Robert and Girard. I am very sorry for you and suggest you find help. I do want to let you know that if you post anywhere else in this blog, posts that are, like this one, simply trying to play the doctor with me and do not deal with the subject in question, I will simply erase your post. I have answered enough of your posts like this one and am probably not going to answer any more simply because I no longer feel inclined to defend myself, as I did when I was so vulnerable after leaving the cult. I realize the “problem” is in you and not in me. I can hear you but I’m not forced to agree, which is what you pretend. You can’t even hear me and disagree, you have to try to brainwash me into thinking that there is something wrong with me because I don’t agree with you, like in the cult… were you smart, you would have realized by now that I was no longer a client for the “treatment”.
I have not asked you to treat me and consider it a tremendous lack of ethic if you are actually some kind of therapist, (a bad one for sure, or you wouldn’t be running around trying to make people sick to justify your treatment, for free!) to pretend to ‘treat’ anyone who hasn’t consulted you. You have no idea what you are doing.
I leave you with probably the most worth while thing I’ve ever written and wish you great luck and beauty. You might not value it but my life, all of it, has been lived to understand only this:
In time we will realize that Democracy is the entitlement of individuals to every right that was in its times alloted to kings. The right to speak and decide, to be treated with decency, to serve and be served by people in a State of “love”, that is, to serve with one’s work for the development of ‘life’. To belong to the Kingdom of Human Beings without racial, national, social or academic separations. To love and be loved. To die at the service of the whole and be honored in one’s death for one’s life and work was legitimately valued. To be graceful and grateful. To have the pride and the humility of being One with the Universe, One with every realm of Existence, One with every living and deceased soul. To treat with dignity and be treated with dignity for One is dignified together with All others and Life itself. To walk the path of compassion, not in the sorrow of guilt but in the pride of being. To take responsability for one’s mistakes and sufferings and stand up again and again like a hero and face the struggle that is put at one’s feet and in one’s hands. Millions of people, millions and millions of people might take many generations to realize the consciousness of our humaneness but there is no other dignified path for the human being.
elena,
did you read the part about “narcissistic rage” ? here are examples… never mind, i won’t bother reposting your own words again… i encourage you to go back with ‘fresh eyes’ and ‘objectively’ to re-read my previous post and your reactions to it, therein you’ll find plenty of examples of what is referred to as narcissistic rage… in fact most of the post is a reactive rejection of everything i said… “I will simply erase your post… I realize the “problem” is in you and not in me…” what happened to “we are one” elena? you have your pie-in-the-sky only when it suits you ? if “the problem” is in me, then isn’t it in you as well…? and visa versa… that is, if we are indeed “One…” as you so frequently remind ‘us’ here.
look elena, back when you were desperate for help, in your own way you were crying out for help, for support, for attention, and i in my own way have been offering it to you. now i dare say that whereas you slip into your favorite slogan when it suits you, i actually live it… i act on the idea that “we are one,” in fact i live it everyday of my life, in my work and in my interactions with other beings here on terra firma — this is an essential part of my ethic and one which i live everyday — when i encounter / recognize that another creature is in need, it’s my responsibility to help where i can. the ‘moral’ is, if there is one — be careful what you ask for because you just might get it.
elena, i am a therapist and i’ve been in and out of various therapies for much of my adult life so i know that sometimes therapy can be painful…. i feel your pain and this is not easy for me either but i also sense some positive movement, just a few degrees but that’s how things go… incrementally. shrinking of the ego can mean breaking through certain types of psychological structures and emotional armoring — this can be a relatively uncomfortable process depending on the degree to which a person identifies and invests herself in the function of the ego… the discomfort involved in therapy is probably in large part why so many avoid it, even though the majority of people would no doubt benefit from one type or another.
i’ve pointed out before the many times here where you compare me to and conflate me with your ex husbands and burton, and i’ve suggested a few of the possible reasons for this…. but it’s really up to you to sort out these types of issues for yourself…. i’ve pointed out before that although you have accused me of being ‘sick’ many times here, i’ve never said that of you…. thouth i do think that everyone, without exception, needs help and support from time to time, even when they are too proud to recognize or admit it… it takes a modicum of humility to be able to admit to needing help and support and it takes humility to accept help; it is this humility which counteracts arrogance and that’s partly what we’re working on. especially in need of help and support is a person who is in the process of coming out of long-term cult involvement. often that person is deeply ashamed of certain aspects of her involvement, she can be very angry and resentful about it, with a lot of underlying sadness and grief. what does she do with that anger, the rage, the sadness? of course she just wants to move on with her life, return to ‘normal’ and bury the past, but the experience is there and it continues to have an effect on daily life, on interactions with others, perceptions, emotions, etc. as much as one would like to shed the experience, to forget about it and move on with a ‘clean slate,’ processing the experience is necessary and even with focused efforts it takes a long, long time, probably the rest of this lifetime. what i try to point out to you are some of the ‘symptoms’ of life after the cult – the effects of brainwashing and especially some of the residual effects based on your particular place in the hierarchy, ego-inflation for example… the felt-need to fill the void with other ’causes’ — and what i’ve tried to probe here are some of the possible ‘reasons’ an individual involves, aligns and ‘armors’ herself with a cult mentality, etc, etc…. this is no easy thing you are going through, i know, and i commend you for it, it takes a lot of courage, and determination. i know you are processing things the only way you can and i’m sorry i’ve been difficult on you, i know i have been… but i sense that you are resilient enough to hear me and to take-in what you are able to.
“I will simply erase your post… I realize the “problem” is in you and not in me…”
egotists in particular do not take criticism well and sometimes display “narcissistic rage” in the face of criticism, they feel the need to be ‘on top’, to have the ultimate and final word, to control others who are perceived as inferior and therefore they can be “justifiably” treated with disdain, used and discarded.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grief
You do not inspire gratitude. I wonder if they would take your license away if they realized how you are using your knowledge. Or your wife and children, I wonder what they would think if they knew what you’ve been doing here for over two years banging on someone with the excuse that you are helping them, like any good old fascist. Tell me Ton, what was it that hurt you so badly? That I called you sissies for allowing the cult to go on for years and years hurting people without doing anything about it? Especially those like you who were trained enough to know the damages and still never said a word to the people that were being hurt? or that I questioned the nations, the institutions and the academy, like thousands are questioning them today? Or the machism that bent to Robert’s and supported it because it made you men feel so special and empowered? Or is it that I’ve been too right for your taste? I realize you have the motivation Ton although you hide it behind the “help dressing” but it is so obvious that even a youth could see through it. I guess you are that kind of doctor that does surgery without the patients approval but for your information, there are two problems here: one, your assessment of the malady is misconstrued to fit your agenda and two, it is against the law. You are inventing a malady and pretending to cure but hurting the patient. You might think that you are not accountable here, like the men that raped the woman in Libya thinking she was only a stupid woman in the back streets of a country in which they haven’t even begun to count, only to find themselves in the eyes of the world a week later.
I am being harassed by you and do not appreciate it. You are a sick man. I hope you realize how serious I am about stopping your harassment should you not stop willingly. This is not a threat but serious warning. You are playing with fire. I have been incredibly naive thinking and wishing you to be honest and have allowed this to go on for this long but give me just one post with the same agenda and you will get banned. After all, the responsibility to protect one’s self falls first and foremost on the individual. Even people who kill in self defense are not made accountable. Why would I be if I ban you? At least I learn.
We are One doesn’t mean putting up with abuse but taking care of abuse so that it doesn’t become an obstacle to Oneness. Nothing is more firm and serious than protecting our right to legitimate interchange against sick people like you. All law is designed to meet that end.
elena,
apparently what i post here represents a distraction to you from ‘more important’ things, and the opinions i express here are called ‘harrassing’ — on the other hand, you did just write this: “I feel very good these days Ton and wish the same for you. Life out of the cult has proved promising and little by little I recover the integrity of being. You have been right about very many things but you don’t have the love that is needed for a dialogue. Never the less I value your presence and consistency. In this friction, we polish our being.”
the above quote from you was about the most accepting thing you’ve ever said of my presence here.
i realize that in part, your defensiveness gives rise to a frequent desire to demean, insult and threaten me and this the ‘gratitude’ to expect from you for my own ‘gratuitous offerings’ – ‘gratuitous’ in the sense that these ‘offerings’ (opinions) of mine are freely given — my opinions are apparently now being offered too ‘freely’ for your liking. (gra·tu·i·tous /grəˈtuɪtəs, -ˈtyu-/ [gruh-too-i-tuhs, -tyoo-] –adjective 1. given, done, bestowed, or obtained without charge or payment;free; voluntary. 2. being without apparent reason, cause, or justification:a gratuitous insult…. the ‘principle of payment’ comes as a question — the cost determines the value in this case… should it be the other way ’round?).
in my opinion, by ‘blogging’ you are doing something that is important for you, even ‘essential,’ i never meant to imply otherwise and excuse me if i haven’t made that clear enough…. but i think i have. my intention is not to impede your process here, i occasionally offer an expression of impressions and opinions as a(nother) possible source of ‘food for thought’ — but right now this is too much for your emotional body to handle, i aplologize, i’m wearing you out, so i’ll giving you a much needed break… take time to rest and digest. i wish you well:
“Human self-reflection is the capacity of humans to exercise introspection and the willingness to learn more about their fundamental nature, purpose and essence. The earliest historical records demonstrate the great interest which humanity has had in itself. Human self-reflection invariably leads to inquiry into the human condition and the essence of humankind as a whole. Human self-reflection is related to the philosophy of consciousness, the topic of awareness, consciousness in general and the philosophy of mind. Humans consider themselves to be the dominant species on Earth and the most advanced in intelligence and ability to manage their environment.” etc… here’s a portal to interesting links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_self-reflection
Yes, I’ve always been too kind with you, it is part of my naive nature but I learn the sort of thing that is necessary for people to understand how accountable they can be. Something changes for the better then.